Esther Kibreab: Maybe the goal's love and understanding. And I know that's, it's a little too - but love and understanding. Love has always been my goal. But I don't know if that's too hippie -
Kim: And see I go back to the analogy of people of color and white people being in this abusive inescapable relationship. We're born into this narrative where [people of color] are the abused party - there's nothing we did to deserve this. And there's nothing I can do to get me out of this relationship. And just because we're trapped and I can't get out doesn't make me want to meet my attacker with love. All I want for them to do is to take accountability for what they've done and what they're going to continue to do. I'm not telling any white people they're not racist.
Esther Kibreab: No, I don't want to tell them that either!
Kim: They can work to be less racist. But they're always going to be -
Esther Kibreab: You know what's funny - maybe we should just not talk to white people. That's our problem: we want to talk to white people. No seriously, we've said this in the beginning. And we've said it a lot: I don't want to talk to white folks. I don't want to explain to you. I don't want to have the [responsibility] of having to take care of your feelings. I just want to talk to my people, and talk to myself - and I just want to heal from within, with me, and I don't want to fuck with you.
Michaela Leslie-Rule: But I feel mixed because I don't have the privilege of saying I'm not going to talk to white people. I have people in my family who are white. They raised me. And I date white people sometimes. So it's interesting to me - but I definitely feel like it's important to have safe spaces. In order for me to be functional and not on drugs - I have to have space in my life that's just for me to be with Black women. [These are spaces] for me to talk about my experiences - for us to laugh, for us to have our time. But by that same sort of token, it's really important for me to be around Caribbean women. For me, that's a part of my history that's completely different from my [other] mom's African-American, slave, Civil Right's kind of line. So it's important for me to find different people with which I can have different kinds of conversations. I've never felt in the U.S. that there's a group of people that I can hang out with where all of my needs our met. I spent a month in Mississippi with my great uncle and he's 90 - we travel around, drink moonshine, play pool - and it's great. But my great uncle believes you're going straight to hell if you're a homosexual - adamantly. And I embrace these people and I love them because they understand a part of me - but I don't feel like I've met anyone with which I can sit and say we're the same. And I don't worry about that. I don't concern myself with needing to be the same with people. I occupy different parts of myself with different people.